Cip & Keller both get help. One learns to sell live to the other person!
Cip & Keller both get help. One learns to sell live to the other person!
Dane:
Hey guys, and welcome to season three, Start From Zero.
Dane:
Film's up, let's do this.
Dane:
(singing)
Dane:
You're about to watch multiple people at a time get coached on how to start a business from zero. Some people need emotional support. They're overwhelmed, they've had past failures. Some need strategy. They're beating their head against the wall. Some need tactics. They want to know what to say or do.
Dane:
These episodes are unique. They're vulnerable. They're weird. Many times, people come to me with a question, but they need something entirely different. In these episodes, you'll see me combine my 15 or so years of business experience with a little intuition and mindset training, to help shape these folks into powerful and confident entrepreneurs. Now we've had 15 millionaire students and counting, so we know this stuff works.
Dane:
Now, make sure you're sending these folks love while you listen, because that stuff matters. We're becoming more sensitive as a society, and we can feel these things, even if we don't know it. Let's get to the episode.
Dane:
Welcome to this episode, we've got just two folks on today. We've got C, otherwise known as Cip, and Keller. What's up guys?
Cip:
What's up. I'm doing good.
Dane:
Let's start off with what your goal for the call is. Keller, let's start with you. What's your big goal for this call?
Keller:
Yeah, sure. So I'm hoping to get some clarity and confidence around my path forward, from where I am now, to what the future looks like.
Dane:
Can you be a little bit more clear with that? I see in your survey question you said, "How to decide when one of your businesses wasn't or was going to work, and what made you continue or quit."
Keller:
Yeah, sorry. I'm in the muck right now, so I've got a about six-month-old music tech startup, and it's like when you are better at giving your friend advice than you are at giving yourself advice. I feel like having an expert, outside opinion about my specific situation and the things that I'm doing and what my road forward looks like is going to be really helpful in determining-
Dane:
That's good.
Keller:
Yup.
Dane:
Very, very good. And how about Cip? What's your goal for the call?
Cip:
Trying to figure out some focus. I'm pretty much all over the place, learning lots of things at the same time, and just narrowing down the path that'll get me to my goal, as far as generating revenue, having more free time.
Dane:
So let's see if we can't refine your goal a little bit. If you could be incredibly selfish, what would your goal for the call be?
Cip:
Helping businesses grow.
Dane:
You'd like to help businesses grow?
Cip:
Yeah. See, I ran businesses as a manager and I really enjoy the outcome of them making more money just because I am there.
Dane:
So grow in terms of helping businesses make more money?
Cip:
Right.
Dane:
Okay, so getting more customers or selling more to current customers, or just growing revenue-
Cip:
All of the above.
Dane:
Right.
Cip:
Obtaining customers and growing revenue and just... I find a lot of satisfaction doing that for other people, but it seems like when I try to do it for myself, it feels a lot harder for some reason.
Dane:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's quite common, just so you're aware. I think even Keller mentioned it in some form with... give better advice to friends than I do to myself. So if you get that down, Cip, you can do very well for yourself. Businesses will pay a lot of money if you can effectively grow them.
Cip:
Right.
Keller:
I would pay you to do that, Cip.
Dane:
Well, Cip, why don't we see if you can't get a sale here right now, what do you think?
Keller:
Dane gives his permission.
Dane:
All you guys keep... thank you, thank you. So, let's give it a shot, Cip. Let's see what happens here. So why don't you see if you can't sell Keller? And you don't have to perform... proceed with... well, I'll just let you handle it.
Cip:
Okay.
Dane:
I'll coach you in [crosstalk 00:04:28]-
Cip:
I guess I've never gotten to this point, I guess, aside from being hired as an employee.
Dane:
I'll coach you through this, Cip. We'll use this as an opportunity for you-
Cip:
Okay.
Dane:
...sales brain.
Cip:
Okay. Okay.
Dane:
So why don't you just try your best, and I'll mentor you along the way.
Cip:
Okay. That sounds good. Keller, am I correct in that?
Keller:
Yup, that's it.
Cip:
My name is Cip. So now, you mentioned that you have a tech startup?
Keller:
It's a music tech startup, yup.
Cip:
So, can you tell me a little bit more about the startup?
Keller:
Sure.
Dane:
Let's pause, let's pause. It's not bad, it's not bad. I want to have you learn a different angle that I don't think you've learned anywhere else.
Cip:
Okay.
Dane:
Who cares about what his business is? And we do care. Ask him what his goals are.
Cip:
Okay. So, what are your goals for your company?
Dane:
There you go.
Keller:
My big goal is to create a marketplace for artists and songwriters on one side, and then producers, mix engineers, the industry on the other side, and create this platform through technology and through other things that connects those people together on... so it's a marketplace business. So I want to build the largest instrumental marketplace on the internet, and then the most efficient and best experience for artists and songwriters to connect through that marketplace.
Cip:
Okay, so you want to build a web-based marketplace for artists to put their music up online to sell?
Keller:
Yeah, it's [crosstalk 00:05:55]-
Cip:
...great experience for customers to come and purchase from them as well?
Keller:
Right, so the customer is artists and songwriters, mostly independent, who are serious about their music and want to create better songs. And usually, typically in the music industry, two main concerns are quality and price. And so through a marketplace model, using a specific license, which is a non-exclusive license, which basically means multiple artists can license the same track, you can get the best of both worlds. So you maintain the high quality, but you can also save on cost.
Keller:
Basically what I'm building is the marketplace where artists and songwriters can come to find their production, and then on the other side, the supply side is producers who can put their tracks up to find new clients to license them.
Cip:
Okay. That's great.
Dane:
So now ask him, Cip, what's your greatest problem?
Cip:
Oh. What's your greatest problem?
Keller:
Yeah, good question. My biggest problem currently is... brand awareness, I think is maybe the best way to put it. And this confusion, which is my overarching goal for this call... is this lack of growth because of brand awareness, is it because of the problem that I'm solving is not a deep enough pain point, is it because of positioning or marketing or messaging... it's a lot of variables to try and figure out which one it is that's affecting the lack of people beating down the door to use the platform.
Dane:
So that's good. That's good, Keller. So now Cip, what did you hear?
Cip:
His pain point is getting his message out that he's here, basically.
Dane:
So what about if you listen for the pattern in what he shared? What kind of pattern did you hear?
Cip:
Getting customers.
Dane:
Oh, getting customers? Does that sound right, Keller?
Keller:
Yeah, I'm getting mixed signals from the market. It's almost like I'm on a date getting mixed signals, because every artist I work one-on-one directly with and show them the platform and walk through it with them and everything, they're all really excited about it, they give me great feedback, they want to continue to use it and even share it with other people, which is great.
Keller:
But then on the mass scale, paid ads didn't work for me, I tried a few other things that just haven't seemed to work. So I don't know if it's just I need to play the long game and build it brick by brick, or what. So that's the main problem.
Dane:
So what did you hear there, Cip, and what did you hear that he... not his direct words, per se, but what do you think the heart of the issue is?
Cip:
Getting his message out.
Dane:
And what leads you to believe it's that?
Cip:
He's letting me know that he's having people come to the website, showing musicians the website, but at the same time, it sounds to me... what I gather is that he's having trouble getting more people to his marketplace.
Keller:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dane:
Cip, as your business experience gains, you'll start to be able to hear things you didn't hear before.
Cip:
Right.
Dane:
So one of the things that I heard was that he is getting his message out, and it's landing flat.
Cip:
Oh, yeah. Yup.
Keller:
Yeah, that resonates.
Dane:
Right. So what we're doing... on a proper sales call, Cip, so we're asking, hey, what are your goals. And they go, great, and they say it... it sounds like a great idea, Keller, right, but that doesn't mean it is going to work, unfortunately.
Keller:
And we don't get to decide what works, right?
Dane:
Hey, someone's read something.
Keller:
Yup.
Dane:
That was my book. But anyway. So, Cip, what we're doing on a sales call, is... somebody introduced me once, they're like, "Dane Maxwell is a sales and marketing monster." And I was like, oh god. And so I thought to myself, guys, the only reason that I would be a sales and marketing monster is not because I have some great sales technique. It's because I make it all the person. If I make it all about the other person, then I will be a quote "sales monster." But if I'm not making it about them, or I'm focused on me, then I'm going to be much less effective.
Dane:
So in selling, we don't ever really need to force anything. So Cip, we're making it all about Keller right now.
Cip:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dane:
And Keller, then you get the benefit of just being fully received and fully listened to.
Dane:
If you'd like to get a free one-on-one with me and be on this show, you can find out details at startfromzero.com/podcast.
Dane:
And so we start with, what's your goal, not, here is my program.
Cip:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). [crosstalk 00:10:18]
Dane:
Lead with them. We don't say, "Hey, guys, let me tell you about my great program." We say, "No, no, so what are your goals right now?" People first. Not product first.
Dane:
And the axiom of our starters group, which is that yearly community that I mentor in, it's, people first, problems second, sell it third, create the solution fourth, get results fifth, then with those results, scale sixth.
Dane:
It's been pretty black and white for me, by the way. Every business, I think... just about every business that I can remember, that followed that framework, has been successful. Some variation, but not much. The businesses that don't do that... is really subtly dangerous.
Dane:
We could actually apply that to Keller's situation here, Cip, but what I wanted to... people first, problem second, sell a solution third, then build solution. Then with the solution, get results with those first few customers. Once results have been had, then you go to the races and you scale.
Dane:
So we go back and we say, what's his goal? He says to build this marketplace. Then we say, people first. Goal. Problem second. What's your problem? So now we are looking at his problem, and we've identified his problem is not getting his message out, but that his message is landing flat. So now, we move towards sales slash solution.
Dane:
Cip, why don't you ask him the magic wand question? If you could wave a magic wand and solve this problem, what would you do? Try and ask him that.
Cip:
If you could wave a magic wand, what would you do?
Keller:
If I could wave a magic wand, I would take the cumulative responses of every single independent partisan songwriter about what their major pain points and problems are with production and getting their songs finished, and synthesize that into the right messaging, and potentially, a different product or a different platform. I'm completely open to changing what I've already had. So I would be able to do a massive market research program with artists and songwriters, which I've done somewhat on a smaller scale, but clearly the messaging and the feedback I've gotten from my initial research isn't resonating on a larger scale.
Dane:
So let's go slow here, Cip. Let me hear what you heard in that response.
Cip:
That he would like to get more information from his customers on where their struggles are in getting their music out. But not only that, he would like to collect it all as data, so that way he can better build a platform for them.
Dane:
Yeah. That's right on the head. And so it sounds like... I want to make sure I'm clear. Is the problem with the artist getting their music out, or getting it made well?
Keller:
Getting it made well. And you may know, Dane, because you're a songwriter, but to get a finished product, you have to have a song produced, you have to have it mixed, you have to have it mastered. It's not necessarily the getting it out to gain fans or promoting it, that's not really what our core is. We're about the production side of things, so getting your songs produced, that's more what our core is.
Dane:
Cip, he's helping artists get great songs made using the same decentralization technology that Uber created.
Cip:
Right.
Dane:
Is that right, Keller?
Keller:
Kind of. So we have instrumental tracks in our library, so we have playlists and basically... and it is genre-specific so that's why I said this is a very niche thing, because-
Dane:
So Keller, you're basically offering them great songs made for a fraction of the cost?
Keller:
Yeah, that's our thing, we help artists and songwriters create better songs faster and with less cost.
Dane:
Okay. So Cip, here we go. We asked the goal, right?
Cip:
Right.
Dane:
Then we asked what his greatest problem was. Then we made sure we really got the problem, we didn't just ask the problem and move on. We weren't like, "Oh, let's get your message out." Because Keller mentioned three or four problems.
Cip:
Yeah.
Dane:
So what you actually realized when he mentioned his three or four problems, is he's actually not even sure what the problem is. He might even just need help getting clear on what the problem is, because once he probably knows the problem, then he could probably take action.
Cip:
Right.
Dane:
Keller's in the no-man's land with the business. He's in a dark room. Very tricky situation to navigate, Keller, by the way, which I think we'll be able to do on this call.
Dane:
But we've got the problem, so we hear the problem, we make sure we understand, it's not getting message out, it's the message landing flat. So then we ask for his magic wand solution for that problem. And then he says, to be able to synthesize all of the things he's heard from his primary customer, which is songwriters... songwriters and musicians, or songwriters, Keller?
Keller:
Yeah, artists and songwriters-
Dane:
Artists, thank you. Artists and songwriters. And the problem is with getting a great song made without breaking the bank?
Keller:
Yeah, yeah.
Dane:
Okay. So synthesize all the problems that artists and songwriters have with getting great songs made without breaking the bank.
Keller:
Yup.
Dane:
Right, and then turn all those and do really powerful and effective marketing material, that he can then use to market with.
Keller:
Yup.
Dane:
Are you tracking all that, Cip?
Cip:
Yeah.
Dane:
So now you're saying you're wanting to help businesses grow.
Cip:
Right.
Dane:
Not only do you have a framework to do it, but you've actually got a chance to practice it.
Cip:
Yeah.
Dane:
What is the framework that you can go out and use immediately? Tell me about this framework that we've been using.
Cip:
The framework is, what is their goals.
Dane:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Cip:
Make it about the other person. Really listen to them and ask the questions, the magic wand question... these are all questions to help get to the real problem, but at the same time, getting the entire picture, so this way you can actually target their most painful points.
Dane:
Yes, and we do that because we have the utmost care for Keller, and that we just want to help them where the pain is the most severe.
Cip:
Right.
Dane:
Most entrepreneurs are like, "Hey, I know your leg's broken, but do you want to wear this glove on your hand?"
Cip:
Right. Yeah.
Dane:
And we're like, no, let's help our fellow brothers and sisters where the pain is the most acute.
Cip:
Yeah. And I think that was my biggest struggle, is figuring how to do that, which is why I haven't actually... outside of being an employee, and helping them grow that way, managing their business that way... physical locations, by the way. But for myself, it was like, how do I do this? And I think that this been really helpful.
Dane:
So now, let's take it another step further. And we just want to bring structured thinking to your world, Cip, because you said you wanted help focusing, right?
Cip:
Yes, yes.
Dane:
You'll want to develop structured thinking.
Cip:
Right.
Dane:
And you might Google how to think structurally, how to develop... look at it as a skill.
Cip:
Yes.
Dane:
Like a very real skill. You mentioned, ask about their goals and then you said, and ask about the magic wand and other things, and find out the problem. The structure got a little slippery in there.
Cip:
Yeah.
Dane:
So we want to go, ask what their goals are, ask what their greatest problem is, ask for what their magic wand solution is.
Cip:
Biggest problem.
Dane:
Right. So, goal, problem, magic wand. You do this enough, with enough business owners, Cip, you're going to be a great service to humanity.
Cip:
Yeah, that's what I want.
Dane:
Yeah.
Cip:
Especially now, with brick and mortars having more problems with the COVID situation.
Dane:
Yes. And you say, I might not know how to solve your problem, but I want to try to help.
Cip:
Yeah.
Dane:
And the honesty of that is going to be like, oh, please, I [inaudible 00:18:18] help. So let's go back to Keller and let's ask him, so he wants to synthesize this information to create more compelling marketing. So ask him, would that be worth paying for, if so, how much?
Cip:
Okay. How do I say that again?
Dane:
Yeah. Very good. We'll go slow. Slow is permanent, right? We go slow, slow transformations, slow learning, slow change. You're doing a great job, by the way.
Cip:
Thanks.
Dane:
Yeah. This is not easy. "Hey, Cip, why don't you try to sell?" What a curve ball, like, holy crap.
Cip:
I'm used to having a product in my hand, that's the other thing.
Dane:
And can you see how the product doesn't matter now?
Cip:
Yes.
Dane:
The product's a speck of sand.
Cip:
Yup.
Dane:
Yeah, it's wildly liberating. You're like, "Wait, what?"
Cip:
Yeah.
Dane:
I spent 10 years to build this expertise that's a speck of sand now? I mean, yes and no.
Dane:
So, okay, ask him this. Would that solution be worth paying for? And maybe throw in magic wand. Would that magic wand solution be worth paying for? If so, how much?
Cip:
Okay. Keller, would that magic wand solution be worth paying for? And if so, how much?
Keller:
Yeah, I think so. I mean-
Dane:
And be honest, Keller, you don't have to put on a show for anything here. Be super honest.
Keller:
Yeah, I am. If you could literally synthesize tons and tons of artists' and songwriters' biggest problems with production, that would be very valuable to me, and how much would I pay for that? It would be thousands probably, in the thousands. Maybe a thousand, $2,000 a month, if it were a continual information dump. Yeah, that's valuable information to me.
Keller:
And bonus points if you could take it a step further and help me figure out where to market the messages that we just came up with.
Cip:
Like which platform to use it, to market the message first, that will resonate with your client?
Keller:
Right, yeah. Well, I found it hard, and I probably have the belief that it's hard that I should work through, to find these pockets of artists and songwriters. I thought it would be easy going into this, because I'm a full-time producer, "Oh, I'll just talk to the people that I know," and [inaudible 00:20:34] and it'll be great. But that hasn't been my experience.
Cip:
Yeah. I know that there are a lot of emerging platforms, especially towards musicians and one of them is Triller, Triller's a big one that's hitting with musicians, especially with-
Dane:
Before we go too far down there-
Cip:
Okay.
Dane:
Tell me what your thought process is that's leading you down that direction? What are your intentions? Where's your head at?
Cip:
I know now his problem... what he wants is data. He wants more data to be able to help him become more known and also build his platform better for musicians, because it sounds to me like he really wants to tailor his platform to helping musicians, because he knows... I don't want to put words in your mouth, Keller, but it seems like you know the pain of trying to start a music project. Am I correct in that?
Keller:
Yeah, yeah. A lot of what I built with [inaudible 00:21:34] was based off of personal conversations over the years with the clients that I was producing for.
Cip:
Yeah, so my brain automatically went to trying to figure out different ways to accumulate more data, via maybe surveys or questionnaires or something in that regard, to be able to get more data. Which I'm not totally familiar with, obtaining data, but that's where my brain went, was to where can I get more data to help him for his business?
Dane:
Good. Cip, how many books on business have you read?
Cip:
Oh... completely?
Dane:
Well... answer as honestly as you like.
Keller:
Just one. Start From Zero.
Cip:
More audiobooks, but complete business books... I don't think dedicated on business, I don't think I've read any. But I've read entrepreneur, Gary V and that type of thing... the Seven Habits and those types of books. But business books, I have not. Everything that I know is putting pieces together, plus from running brick and mortar stores for other companies, that's where I got a lot of my stuff.
Dane:
Okay. I can hear the... and there's no problem in this... I can hear the missing business knowledge gaps-
Cip:
Yes.
Dane:
...in your brain, as a result of just not yet reading the proper books.
Cip:
Okay.
Dane:
And so as you read the proper books, you'll build these certain... knowledge gaps will fill in in your mind, and you'll have the proper... and you can find the top recommended books at startfromzero.com/topbooks.
Cip:
Okay.
Dane:
Any of those are great. Because otherwise, you're like a really passion-
Cip:
[inaudible 00:23:25]
Dane:
...what's that?
Cip:
Fragmented, and like you just stated, many passions. Yeah.
Dane:
Well, it's like a passionate neurosurgeon that's never trained or something.
Cip:
Yes.
Dane:
You don't want to learn near your brain.
Cip:
Yes, that's what I feel like. And then a lot of times, I think that's what a lot of the self-doubt and worth come into play, and really pushes me back down.
Dane:
Yeah. The good news is, and the bad news is, that hard work can cure both of those.
Cip:
Right. Yes.
Dane:
Hard work can cure the doubt, hard work can cure the business... sense of worth. And if you read those top books, you'll start to get these certain structures in your brain, so that when Keller's speaking, you'll be able to better listen to him. You listened well, better listen based on the framework of knowledge is that you've done the work to, to build in your brain, by reading books.
Dane:
But this is something that... you don't have to start reading books before you do any of this, you can start doing these questions all over the place. And you can just start collecting people and their goals and their problems and their solutions and their prices and... but here, in a moment, in under a half an hour, you created found money with Keller of $1,000 to $2,000 a month, plus bonus points or more, if you can even find the best placements to put those messages.
Cip:
Right.
Dane:
It's wild how simple, quick this can be.
Cip:
Yes.
Dane:
But let's look at... Keller, let's break apart your business a little bit, see if we can get you some clarity on this.
Dane:
If you'd like to get a blueprint to my brain, I have it. In a 302-page book, Start From Zero. You can get a free chapter... you actually can get my best chapter for free, on that book, right now, at startfromzero.com. Go check it out.
Dane:
So in terms of people first, problem second, sell it third, you did that. You talked to the artist, they love it. Then you built it fourth. And then have you had some artists that have gotten results with it, had songs that are made?
Keller:
Yeah, we have. We've had a handful. So our model is membership-based, so we have monthly and yearly members. We have a handful of monthly members and we have a yearly member, and they all have finished completed songs that they're really, really excited about and happy with. Some of them even say, "These are the best songs I've ever made."
Dane:
Amazing, dude. Good on you for [inaudible 00:25:45] solve such a painful problem, too. And how long have you been sticking with this so far?
Keller:
Just about six months. We're still in beta, MVP, but about six months in the wild.
Dane:
And you read the Start From Zero book, I imagine, because you mentioned it.
Keller:
I did, yup.
Dane:
So you understand the gardener?
Keller:
I do, mostly, yeah.
Dane:
It's okay if you don't. The gardener, then, basically tells stories of the results of their first customers. You just want to tell stories before, during and after, just tell stories of these artists getting songs made and market those.
Keller:
Yup.
Dane:
And what's your landing pages, what's your website URL?
Keller:
I'll put it in the chat. It's soundssphere.com, but it's two Ss. It's in the chat. It's soundssphere, with two Ss in the middle, .com.
Dane:
Okay. Your headline says, "Unlimited beats for artists and songwriters. Save money on production, make money with your songs." So you're not speaking to the result.
Keller:
Right. Yup. And that's changing. Literally right before this call, I was looking at the staging server where our headlines changed to "Create better songs."
Dane:
You want to go even sharper. You want to go right to the acute. So the good news is, you got people that have a problem that have said yes, you've got sales, and you got results with them.
Keller:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dane:
Now, you do want to tread carefully with lukewarm pains.
Keller:
Right.
Dane:
They can turn you bitter real quick. Because you're like, what the heck is going on? I have a lukewarm product, it's myagentbase.com, myagentbase.com. You go there, it looks killer, it makes sene, brokers love it. But their arm's not bleeding over it. Some of them is, but it's kind of hard to sell, it's been a frustrating experience. But you can show real estate brokers other things, and they're like, "I want it." But you show them this, and they're like, "Oh, yeah, it's nice, maybe I'll give it a shot."
Dane:
So there's something to be said about lukewarm. And myagentbase was pretty fun to build, because I had a broker be like, "Yo, can you..." it was people first, we sold it first, we built it exactly around their problem. We just didn't realize... we thought it would be easier to sell.
Keller:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dane:
So anyway, it was a good learning. And it's not a bad business, it's maybe 22 grand a year, passive.
Keller:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dane:
That we split amongst a few folks. I didn't spend any money to get it built. Okay, long story short. Lukewarm can be... do you think you're in lukewarm territory?
Keller:
Yeah, it sounds like where I am... I guess my thing would be, I would imagine that it's possible to take the lukewarm to boiling hot, if you do certain things.
Dane:
Yeah. I think you're in good shape. But I would change the name, if you could. It's a logo and a domain, so I don't know how... you know what I thought you said, was soundsfair.com. So I typed in soundsfair.com and it doesn't even look like it's taken. But you might consider a new name at some point.
Dane:
But the quick fix is, you've got to... customer uses a mechanism to get a result. So an artist uses a producer to get a song made.
Keller:
Yup.
Dane:
But on the top headline of your site, you're speaking to mechanism. Beats for artists. So you go back and you reword this to... yeah, I think you're going to be in good shape if you do this, because you'll get, get great songs built without the expensive costs of producers. Not the one that you mentioned. The one you mentioned was a little too lukewarm itself.
Keller:
Create better songs?
Dane:
Create better songs?
Keller:
Yeah. Create better songs, and then underneath is, get unlimited-
Dane:
Yeah, no. Create better songs without the expensive cost of producers, yes. Create better songs, unlimited beats... cool, but the draw is, most artists are internally up in arms about, I can't get a good producer because I can't afford them, this sucks, I hate this. You're in their head with create better songs without the expensive cost of a producer. You're like, oh, god, I love Keller. I bet some of your artists love you.
Keller:
I hope so.
Dane:
I think they should. So now you've got the headline, is speaking to a result. Now below it, you've got playlists. Between playlists and this, I'd like you to have three stories that are three long columns about artists, and I want you to tell the before, during and after components of their transformation right below that fold.
Dane:
Because right now you've got a jukebox playlist, Mexicali Rose, Four Ten, Against the Grain, [inaudible 00:30:12]. I don't think those are going to mean anything to artists because they don't understand the context of this. And they also don't understand... there's nothing to the movement of your frustration with the way the current model works, and how broken it is, and how it needs to be disrupted.
Keller:
Yup. No, that's good. It's a subtle change. What people are used to with getting their songs produced, this is a subtle behavioral change. I don't think it's a leap completely outside the realm of unknown, but I think it is a little different where people might get pause and if it's not very clear and concise, then it probably bounced.
Dane:
Yeah, I think you just have a copywriting issue, man. Which is great news. You could hire a copywriter, that might be interesting.
Keller:
I've got a whole new structure for how I want to redo the landing page with new copy, but I think you're right, I think it's worth hiring an expert in that to help really nail it.
Dane:
And you don't have to. To get going, I would just speak to results and tell stories of your clients' transformations on your page, and speak to how you want to disrupt the way it currently works, and you'll get people up in arms on your side with you. And change the name. It's even painful to try to think to type in.
Keller:
Yup.
Dane:
Were there other names you were thinking about when you chose this one?
Keller:
Nothing that really made the final round. I think this was pretty much-
Dane:
So think about creating better songs without the expensive cost producers. Can you feel the impact of that headline? The liberation and the freedom?
Keller:
Yeah, flow came to mind, that word, flow.
Dane:
Yes. I imagine songflow.com is probably taken, but if not, you might pick that up.
Keller:
Let's see. Look like it might be parked, yeah.
Dane:
But it's all about the song, but songs cost a lot of money to get made, until now.
Keller:
Yup. Can I ask you as a songwriter, is quality or cost more important? For you, probably, cost is not important, but as a songwriter, a lot of the artists, starving artist kind of thing is, that's why I tried to speak to both, which is you can save a whole lot of money, but we also still have the same quality you're used to paying thousands for.
Keller:
And just in my head, it's like, well, maybe pick one or the other? Or is it okay to do both?
Dane:
If you did a test on does quality really matter, and you actually went out and did the work and found independent people that would rate the same thing based on quality levels, 100 people on this quality, 100 people on this quality, 100 people on this quality, and you could actually help artists and songwriters focus their energy on the most highest-impact area for their songs? That'd be a heck of a blog post.
Keller:
Yeah.
Dane:
Where I go is, what are people going to enjoy? Both my training, because I understand customer-first thinking. But I was about both, personally. I wanted cost and quality, but if I could've gotten the same quality for less cost... I may not be the best guy to ask. I appreciate you asking me, but I think whatever you've done with your research should stand.
Dane:
But you got something here. So tell me what you're going to change about this and we'll wrap here.
Keller:
Going to really look at being sharper with the headline and the messaging overall, telling stories-
Dane:
What does sharper mean?
Keller:
Speaking more to the result that the customers want.
Dane:
Right, so anybody who's got lukewarm responses out there, you can do the same thing.
Keller:
Yup. We're anti-lukewarm. So changing the structure of least the landing page to incorporate more testimonials and stories before, during and after this transformation of, here's this starving artist that didn't know what to do and had all these problems, and here's Sound Sphere... whatever the new name is... that came along and transformed their experience and now they're happy.
Keller:
And potentially look at hiring a copywriter, and how we're disrupting the way that people are currently creating their songs.
Dane:
Yes. And when you think about a new name, let it come from the feeling that's generated from that headline. Like a great song is made from a feeling, let your name come from a feeling. That flow, wherever that came... that's good.
Keller:
And then continuing to do things that don't scale, which is what I'm doing... because I got so caught up in, the paid ads aren't working, I didn't know what to do, I just was so focused on what wasn't working, that I got bogged down. So I retooled, I decoupled my self-worth from the business, and now I'm able to just do things that don't scale, and that's enough for me.
Keller:
I just don't know if I can be... I feel like I have all this capacity to serve and to run this and to create and build and all this stuff that's not being used, and so I'm wondering if I'm doing the right thing by just this hand-to-hand combat, reaching out to artists directly and social media and doing cold emails and stuff like that.
Dane:
Have you heard of Carl Wockner?
Keller:
Nuh-uh. Nope.
Dane:
He's got a list of musicians in the thousands. I'll introduce him to you, and he'd probably promote this. But you set up an arrangement where it's attractive to both of you, and you can make sure it's actually got results and it's about the... because Carl's all about disrupting the music industry.
Dane:
And what you're doing is disrupting the music... you're decentralizing music with this. You're a disruptor, and you need to speak to it, which is awesome. So if your ads were talking about beats and stuff for artists and songwriters, you'd probably get mixed signals.
Keller:
Yeah. I got pulled into the race to the bottom that's the current way of doing things. Selling beats online is just a race to the bottom.
Dane:
And when you talk to artists and you said they really liked it, and when you went online it was lukewarm? What did you say when you were talking to the artists?
Keller:
The messaging was different. I think you're right. The ads that I was speaking on were unlimited beats and high quality whatever. But when I'm talking with the artist directly, it's about the white glove customer service and the handholding through the whole process and that kind of thing, the experience. It's a better experience overall, it's not just a one-night stand, like you go to another site and buy a beat and that's it. We help you with the mixing, we help you with the mastering. We come up with a plan for the distribution and the release and help you with those things if you need connections or whatever.
Dane:
Very good. Very good. Guys, this is very important and you can take the patterns from this entire episode, if you know anybody that's got mixed signals with their website, to see, are they talking about results? Do they have stories of the results? Probably not.
Dane:
And then when it comes to folks like Cip with the passion for helping businesses grow, and Cip, you literally breaking the link between needing a product. So nice to have you guys on.
Cip:
May I add one thing before we leave, for Keller?
Dane:
Yeah.
Cip:
One thing that I would suggest if you want to do this down the road, this doesn't impact you immediately, but it will help with search, I do see a problem with search. Even having such a blog section and putting ten blogs... some of the long-tail keywords that are not searched, like making inexpensive music or music on a budget or those type of things... if you use those keywords and build out blog pages using those, I think in the long-term you'll start to get organic traffic to your website.
Cip:
It's a pain point and musicians struggle with that, so naturally they're going to go to Google and Bing and type in those keywords. If you have blogs... because I've seen some of these that are really outdated... if you have blog posts, articles, with these keywords, I think that'll help out tremendously in the long run, too. I hope you found some use for that as well.
Keller:
Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Cip, that's actually one of the things we're working on right now is rolling out a blog, so that's good feedback.
Dane:
If you'd like to know the number one thing that kills people from being successful in entrepreneurship, it's really simple. It's them trying to do it alone. Trying to do it without mentorship, trying to do it without accountability, trying to do it without a way to focus. Trying to do it without somebody helping you along the way to get your mind straight.
Dane:
And right now, I'm running a yearly mentoring, accountability and focus community called Starters. And you can learn more about Starters, and join a community of amazing entrepreneurs, all practicing and living the principles from this podcast in this book.
Dane:
How do you get good at this stuff? Practice. How do you get even better? Being around others that practice. And how do you become unstoppable and just move no matter what? Community, community, community. And not just any community, a community of people that don't shame you for wanting freedom. A community of people that don't look at you weird for saying you want more. You can find that community at Starters.
Dane:
If you go to startfromzero.com, you'll see our products up top, and then you can go and find the Starters program. We would love to have you, and we also have a good fit quiz that you can take on that page, because not everybody's a good fit for Starters. So if you go look at the Starters page, take the good fit quiz and it'll tell you if you'd be a good fit for that program.
Dane:
Listen, we don't accept everyone because we're obviously not for everyone. But we are for certain people. If you'd like to see if that person is you, go to startfromzero.com, look at products, find Starters and then fill out that quiz. And we look forward to supporting you and mentoring you on your journey.